Mennonite Weekly Review

Comments

• Another example of the Mennonite Church using the institutional axe to maintain a charade of a “teaching position”. Mennonite pastors and leaders (especially denominational leaders) know that it is only a matter of time until the Confession of Faith and polity will be altered to reflect the true diversity of belief present in MCUSA on issues of sexuality. The current statements do not accurately reflect the “teaching positions” of the Mennonite Church, to the degree that the situation would be laughable, if it weren’t so sad. It is only a matter of time, and we will look back and chafe at the injustice done to gay pastors and church workers, just as we do remembering a time when the ministerial gifts and calling of women were denigrated.

  - a Pennsylvania brother (apr 11 at 11:28 a.m.)

• I agree with Pennsylvania brother. -- Both the suspension of the credentials and this further action are so discouraging. --

  - a Manitoba sister (apr 11 at 11:46 a.m.)

• For the past five years I have greatly benefited by having Randall Spaulding as my pastor at Covenant Mennonite Fellowship in Sarasota, Florida. As the son of a pastor, a seminary graduate, and an ordained minister, I believe I have sufficient knowledge and experience to judge pastoral leadership. Randy has proven himself to be an outstanding pastor and more effective than most pastors I have known.

  His expulsion from the Bi-National Worship Council was presumably because his gayness would taint Mennonite music. Does that mean that all copies of Sing the Journey and Sing the Story are also tainted and should be recalled or destroyed? Do those decision makers assume that their god is not able to work effectively through a highly talented pastor and musician who their god created gay? For the Worship Council to base its decision on the homophobia of our local conference only exposes their own hidden homophobia by hiding behind the conference's injustice.

  Randy is reliving the Anabaptist experience of the 1500s as a victim of ignorance, violence, and abusive persecution in the name of some private god. How sad that Randy's primary violent persecutors are Mennonites who claim to be the descendents of independent thinking, non-violent Anabaptists. By committing psychic violence on Randy and Covenant and by deliberately being blind toward the unfolding of new truth about homosexuality as a given and not a choice, these zealous Mennonite descendents have betrayed the values of their Anabaptist martyrs. Hiding their obvious prejudice under the garments of remote biblical passages and their own view of their god's will is an affront to all truth seekers.

  Last summer I attended Randy's marriage ceremony. The power of love and depth of commitment between these two men was obviously present and observed by all. I can’t explain why two people of the same sex are attracted to each other in such a way that they want to make a life long commitment to be married. But then I can’t explain either why I would only consider a female of the species for my own marriage partner. It appears to be just the way things are. The god of the two men approved of their marriage. The varying gods of the 100 or so attendees approved of their marriage. Why is it that the god of the Mennonites disapprove of this marriage? And why do they want the full force of the Mennonite Church and of the United States government to impose their god’s view on everyone else? Perhaps it is because they assume, erroneously I believe, that their god is THE god. There appears to be no compelling government interest in denying these two men all the 1,500 or so benefits of marriage that the government has granted to me and my wife for making the same commitment. The government benefits of a life long commitment between two people that we call marriage should be granted to everyone who makes that commitment or to no one. I am happy to report that the children and youth who were present and even participating in the ceremony showed no signs of experiencing any contagious infection, trauma, or corruption. Statistically, at least one of them is attracted to their own sex. That young person received the helpful, loving message that they are normal, ok, and accepted as they are.

  - David Ryan (apr 11 at 12:41 p.m.)

• God did it again, gave spiritual gifts to an unqualified person. When are we going to realize that it is not a set of beliefs that God requires but a way of life. "Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly." This is part of the reason so many younger people are leaving...and I don't blame them.

  - Connie Shelley (apr 11 at 2:05 p.m.)

• David, It is my understanding that Randall and his wife, Laura were united in marriage, thus in God’s sight they became one flesh till death do them part. Later, Randall and Laura were legally divorced but Biblically remained one flesh. Now, Randall is legally married to another man, Gary Stephens. From a scriptural perspective, are Randall and his new same sex spouse Gary now considered to be Biblically one flesh?

  - Dale Welty (apr 11 at 3:36 p.m.)

• Connie, I was wondering what you meant by your comment. Do you mean that you think Spaulding was given gifts and yet is unworthy? Or am I misunderstanding your statement?

  I feel that as a community of Mennonites we need to learn to accept sexuality (gay, lesbian, bisexual and straight) as a gift from God, not as a choice, perversion or immoral action. I do not see how we as a church can teach people about a loving and accepting, forgiving and understanding god and yet discriminate against someone who wishes to make a lifelong commitment to the person he/she loves.

  And to address Dave's comment; the issue in that question pertains to the morality and biblical perception of remarriage which is a wholly separate issue from the expulsion of Spaulding because he is gay.

  - Jenny Boehs (apr 11 at 10:37 p.m.)

• Jenny, I was being factitious. "By their fruits you will know them". Since Spaulding has spiritual gifts, then he must have Spirit. If he has gifts from the Spirit, how sad that the church won't be able to receive them. Why would God Grace someone with wonderful gifts and then tell them they have no purpose? I would like people to please tell me who Jesus ever excluded.

  - Connie Shelley (apr 11 at 11:37 p.m.)

• Connie, Thanks for the clarification! I was pretty sure that was what you meant but sometimes sarcasm doesn't transfer so well in written form. I completely agree with your comments!

  - Jenny Boehs (apr 12 at 1:51 a.m.)

• Right now we all agree that if an adult man or woman deeply loves a child, it would be wrong for that man or woman to "marry" that child, no matter how profoundly and sincerely they love each other, and no matter how certain the adult is that God made him/her that way.

  Can we all agree right now that we no longer believe that, rather than dragging it out for years as we have with this debate?

  - Rhonda (apr 12 at 7:07 p.m.)

• Jenny, you state that ‘as a community of Mennonites we need to learn to accept sexuality (gay, lesbian, bisexual and straight) as a gift from God). Should that not also include polygamists and straight married couples who choose to live in nudist colonies? Surely you would not want the church to discriminate against those who live these lifestyles.

  I think the polygamists and nudists would argue that they too have made lifelong commitments to the person he/she loves, therefore are deserving of enjoying a God who loves, accepts, forgives and understands them along with the LGBTQ people. Don’t be too narrow minded.
  

  - Dale Welty (apr 12 at 8:12 p.m.)

• I have been attending Randy Spaulding's church in Sarasota, Florida for nearly 2 years now. Randy has been the best pastor I have had. It is too bad that the Mennonite Church USA has taken the position it has with respect to Randy. Oh well, maybe it's time to bid farewell to the denomination.

  - James Martin (apr 12 at 8:58 p.m.)

• I believe, Mr. Welty, that we would disagree on the fact that homosexuality is a choice. Living in a nudist colony is a lifestyle choice and I don't think Jesus would throw them out, either. However, many of us believe our LGBT friends did not choose their sexual orientation. Who would choose to live on the periphery of society...and the church? Only a masochist.

  - Connie Shelley (apr 12 at 10:08 p.m.)

• This is UNBELIEVABLE! When are the leaders of this denomination going to WAKE UP and realize that there is a cancer of fear within this denomination...a fear of stepping up and stepping out in order to do the right thing? How many victims will it take before they realize that the debates over differences in sexual orientation are no different than past debates over race and gender? What are they afraid of?? Truly, I would like them to ask themselves this question. I am sick and tired of "leaders" in this church cowering amongst themselves in order to protect some elusive club that excludes people that don't quite fit their mold of the "acceptable Mennonite". As a denomination that strives to follow the example of Jesus, I am amazed that we haven't figured this out. It doesn't take a Biblical scholar to notice Jesus' interactions with those on the fringe or to notice Jesus' responses to those in leadership roles who were more concerned with protecting tradition than they were with loving their neighbor.

  - Stacey Farran (apr 12 at 11:28 p.m.)

• Stacey, sorry to say, but this is one of the reasons so many of us have walked away from the "Mennonite" church. Not so much this specific question, but the manner in which questions are handled or not handled. Half of my IMS Class of 1967 has left the Mennonite church. We've become fat, happy, complacent, rich and hesitant to rock our comfy little boat.

  - Debra Bender (apr 13 at 12:36 a.m.)

• Whoops - before all my classmates start emailing me, let me be more specific with that last sentence: "MC USA has become" . . . not "we" as in the Class of '67, okay guys?

  - Debra Bender (apr 13 at 12:39 a.m.)

• Dave, I am in agreement with Connie on this. I completely believe that homosexuality is not a choice as I have watched first hand as many teenagers struggle with their own fear of telling others about their sexuality, as they struggle to tell their parents without getting kicked out of their house, as they struggle to deal with the taunting and abuse in schools and greater society. I have known people who have felt so alone and so hated and so different that they have seen no option but suicide as they feel they have failed at being a moral and worthy human being.

  I have also seen the joy, relief and love in those teens and college students who have found even one person they can confide in, one person who will be accepting and will listen to them without judging. How can homosexuality be a choice when people try so hard to be straight; who pray every night that they will wake up without these feelings, who try everything they can think of to change themselves, are still attracted to members of the same sex?

  Polygamy and Nudism are completely different as they are choices. The individuals who participate willingly in this are capable of leaving this situation. They are judged due to their actions-not their physical attractions.

  But I do believe that God "loves, accepts, forgives and understands them." Did I study a different Jesus than you? Were you not aware of his interactions with those condemned by the rest of society? Or of the advice to "Love your neighbor as yourself?"

  I was taught that our God sees what is in our hearts, that God understands why we do what we do. If that is true than how can God blame or hate or exile those who act out of love? Or those who feel most comfortable in the nude as Adam and Eve did? Or those who feel that a traditional marriage is not what allows them to fully express their love, their commitment, their identity or their personality?

  I fully believe that God sees homosexuality as simply another difference among the people of the world. It is another part of our world that adds diversity, just as race, gender, culture, ability and faith do.

  - Jenny Boehs (apr 13 at 1:25 a.m.)

• A lot of the comments on here are clearly the product of not reading the article very closely, along with unfamiliarity with the views of the Mennonite Church regarding homosexuality.

  Nowhere does the article say that Spaulding was subjected to discipline because he was gay. It says he was subjected to discipline because of the sexual nature of his relationship with another man. This is consistent with Mennonite Church policy that does not say it is wrong to be LGBTQ, but that such people ought to live celibate lives rather than engage in sexual contact with others of the same sex.

  It is distressing to see so many people have bought into the cultural lie that we cannot be happy and fulfilled without sex.

  - Theophilus (apr 13 at 2:28 a.m.)

• Can we once again turn to the Scriptures, read them and interpret them, and use them in a correct way as our authority on matters that concern church life? I believe there is a need to affirm that the entirity of the New Testament is a witness to Christ, that the NT in its entirity speaks to our needs and provides wisdom. In turn, the NT interprets the Old Testament for us. We need to search all of the Scriptures and bring them together properly. They have insight and authority that our personal preferences do not have.

  - Daniel Hoopert (apr 13 at 8:10 a.m.)

• Dear Theophilus,

  It's the tired, old argument about celibacy again. How nice that the church allows gays as long as they remain half-persons. "You can be friends, but don't follow God's call and fall in love, make covenanted vows, love each other deeply, adopt each other's extended families as one's own and rely on each other for strength, companionship and affection."

  As a pastor, I call on the people of my congregation, straight or gay, to live lives of faithfulness and fidelity to one's spouse. If sexual intimacy between two persons of the same sex who are in a loving, covenanted relationship with the blessing of God offends you or grosses you out, then I would suggest that is something that resides within you to deal with. God does not have the problem, nor the people who are married to each other.

  A new consciousness is arising in our time in which Christians, including many, many Anabaptists, are growing to recognize that for homosexual people our only "sin" is that we were born with a minority affectional orientation different from that of the majority. Overwhelming scientific and medical knowledge exists today pointing to the inescapable conclusion that affectional/sexual orientation is not a moral choice. 21st century Anabaptist teachings affirm that God's Spirit moves not just through ancient texts and doctrines written on animal skins, but also through present-day understandings and discoveries in science, psychology, new biblical scholarship and ethics.

  - Heretic Pastor (apr 13 at 9:05 a.m.)

• So, Theophilus, is it your belief that only some kinds of love are from God? Perhaps your kind? Is our Mennonite tradition more about belonging, being in or out, a dualistic view of everyone who is not us or is it about transforming us so that we have the heart and the mind of Christ? Because if it is about the first and not about the second...count me out with Debra and her friends.

  - Connie Shelley (apr 13 at 10:51 a.m.)

• My assumption is that each of us is somewhere on a continuum of sexual identity that stretches between those who are 100 percent heterosexual and those who are 100 percent homosexual.
  

  Does the latest research call me to modify my assumption about the continuum?

  If we are thinking clearly when we assume such a continuum, then what should the church say (if anything) to those of us in the middle?

  - BDF (apr 13 at 10:57 a.m.)

• Below is the response Covenant Mennonite Fellowship (Randy's congregation) Leadership Council sent to MCUSA leadership:

  Dear Terry Shue and Ervin Stutzman,

  We at Covenant Mennonite Fellowship know firsthand the incredible gifts God has given Randy Spaulding in the areas of worship planning and music ministry. As pastor of our church, Randy creates an atmosphere every Sunday in which we meet the divine through readings, song choice and thought-provoking sermons. We are blessed by how God works through Randy.

  We are very disappointed in the decision of Mennonite Church USA denominational leadership to remove Randy from the Bi-national Worship Council. Even though his gifts and value to the council have been recognized, the Mennonite Church leadership is not allowing Randy to use these God-given gifts because of a handful of verses in the Bible that comment on sexuality and how some people in the denomination interpret those verses.

  We as a Church have come to recognize the cultural and situational nature of the verses in the Bible that support slavery or demand that women remain quiet. Our congregation remains saddened that the Church has not been able to recognize the same cultural and situational dynamics that pertain to these verses on sexuality and that the denomination continues to reject the gifts of gays and lesbians who want to be active in the Church. We look forward to a time in the future when our denomination will find a place for those who interpret these verses in light of their context and the overarching message of love, hospitality and respect for God’s creation communicated throughout the Bible.

  We understand that our denomination is made up of many diverse people and congregations with many different points of view. We empathize with the challenges of trying to maintain unity within such a diverse body. We pray, though, that following God’s will to love and respect all that God has created is a more important purpose of our denomination.

  In God’s peace, Covenant Mennonite Fellowship Leadership Council

  - Debra Gingerich (apr 13 at 12:54 p.m.)

• To all "Lovers of God, a.k.a., "Theophilus" --

  I'm wondering if such songs as, "God is Love," "The Love of God," "There's a Wideness in God's Mercy," will be in the new hymnal.
  

  If we "search all the scriptures" (as one respondent calls for above), we discover that Love is not divided. It is One. We have differing words for love, depending upon the angle we may be looking at it; agape, eros, phileo, etc. God, who is Love, is One. Only in our distorted ways to we see it all divided, as in thinking that expressions of “spiritual love” are superior to expressions of “physical” or “emotional” love. Heterosexual persons (I am one) too often see love between a man/woman as honorable, but between same-sex persons, it is dishonorable. It is too often in the heterosexual mindset that genital expressions of love become – a fetish, a thing to spark the imagination; a legal issue, something to control and to limit; a moral judgment, a thing to demean as we ignore the specks in our own eye.
  

  God is Love, that is, God is Agape, Eros, Phileo. The “cultural lie” is not so much that we don't know “happiness and fulfillment without sex,” BUT that people equate love with sex, and make genital behaviors the focus of everything erotic. God is everything, including the erotic. Eros is not simply something that enables people to go to bed together; it is passion for the richness in all of life – beauty, work, play, color, music, energy, etc. I do hope the committee (minus Randy Spaulding) has some sense of the fullness of God's Love. I have a hunch Randy had some things to contribute to the exploration of a new hymnal.
  

  To Debra Bender and former IMSers, welcome – a former teacher has been put outside the church as well – for believing in the sanctity of gay love. May Love increase within and outside the church!

  - Richard J Lichty (apr 13 at 1:53 p.m.)

• So far, I think Dale Welty has given the most helpful information. If he is correct that Randy Spaulding was married to a woman in a covenanted relationship, when did Randy become gay? No one has denied Dale's information on this blog. If Randy knew he was gay from birth or by orientation, it was a terrible thing to marry a woman. That was a covenant he made "before God and these witnesses".

  Remember, Satan can duplicate what appears to be the gifts of the Spirit.

  How long does a covenanted relationship last? I have known a number of people who married and then evidently decided they were gay. How can that be a gay orientation that God gave him/her from birth?

  I also knew one woman who claimed to be gay and later dated for some years a man.

  I suspect the human reasoning I will get from this view. But I am interested in the Biblical/God view.

  Of course since many have made vows in marriage and then broke their covenant, my questions are probably invalid to many.

  The "hypocrisy" on gay issues is not the only example of hypocrisy that is giving people excuses for leaving the church. If we view the church as the body of Christ, we will not leave the body. We are needed to make the body complete.

  - Les (apr 13 at 7:45 p.m.)

• I look forward to the day when the sexual orientation of my pastor, Randy, will be irrelevant and the many gifts he so graciously shares with others will be what people rave about.
  

  - Ann Krehbiel (apr 13 at 9:58 p.m.)

• In response to Les' comment above, I have to say that I am not surprised at all that some gay men and women find themselves in heterosexual relationships at some point in their lifetimes. After all, look at what we as a society put them through psychologically from a very early age. I can't imagine the inner struggle they must go through...facing torment from classmates, being disowned from their own families, and even being shut out from their church where they are taught that God loves them unconditionally but as soon as someone gets wind that they are gay, they are suddenly viewed and treated as damaged and dangerous material - no matter what their gifts may be. As a society, we tend to view human sexuality as an "either -or". You're either gay or straight. As with most things in life, it is not quite so simple. There are many people who would describe themselves as somewhere along the continuum of gay-straight, having affections for both sexes or a slight preference for one or the other. This makes perfect sense, really. Take eye color for example. There isn't just one shade of green or brown; there are many beautiful colors in between.

  Les, you mention the importance of keeping the body of Christ together - to make it complete. How are we practicing that when we expel our gay brothers and sisters...or make them miserable enough to choose to leave?
  

  I'm afraid to say it, but if it were possible to remove all the contributions our gay brothers and sisters have made to our denomination in song, in art, in leadership, in spirituality....all we might have left is one cold mushy casserole at the Sunday potluck.

  - Stacey Farran (apr 13 at 10:48 p.m.)

• Theopholis -

  Directly from the article: "Southeast Mennonite Conference took away Spaulding’s ministry credentials in September 2009 “in response to [Spaulding’s] disclosure of his desire to pursue a covenanted same-sex relationship,” according to a letter from Güete at the time.

  So, my question is this: Had Spaulding just remained silent, would everything have been honky-dorey? According to this quote, he was de-credentialed "in response to [his] DISCLOSURE of his desire . . . " Even worse than I first thought.

  Mr. Lichty, is that really you? Really?

  - Debra Bender (apr 13 at 11:18 p.m.)

• I wrote that I expected responses of human reasoning, but I did not expect "one cold mushy casserole"!

  - Les (apr 14 at 8:17 p.m.)

• Les, I agree with you most of the time, but here you are dead wrong. How many gay people wind up in loveless marriages because of the pressures of society? This pressure to conform, to be who one is not, is what led to the marriage in question, and ultimately what caused the marriage's failure.
  

  How many hapless teens seek to hide being gay by being the ultimate Casanova or the ultimate masculine bully? (I can think of at least two examples from my high school class of about sixty. Though I am not gay, I remember what the bullying feels like if folks think a person is.) How many are driven away from the church, from God, from everything they love forever because of such bigotry?
  

  The gifts of Mr. Spaulding in leading his congregation speak for themselves. I am deeply ashamed that this should be called, in most Orwellian sense, a "loving dialogue."

  - JPR (apr 15 at 12:39 a.m.)

• What deeply disappoints me about all of these posts is the fact that we are all talking past each other. If I leave what I believe the Bible teaches to follow the "cultural" and "societal" norms and interpretations I see here, then I leave my faith values. When the MCUSA Confession of Faith changes then I will be leaving MCUSA. My interpretation of marriage as biblically based AND my commitment to my spouse in the vows at our wedding say that I am in a committed marriage relationship. Did God Bless that? Does that change, when? How do we interpret the Bible? How do we identify sin in our own lives and within the community of believers? May God (my God has a capital G)watch over us! I believe the leaders ARE acting, acting with integrity and consistency in Biblical understanding. We will continue to talk past each other because we are each reading a different Bible. Generations of Biblical teaching are not easily "discarded".

  - Midwest Brothr (apr 15 at 6:05 a.m.)

• Midwest Brother, Does this mean you follow all of the rules and advice of the bible literally without adapting for modern times? Do you refuse to wear a "garment of cloth made of two kinds of stuff." (Leviticus 19:19) or "Let your garments be always white" (Ecclesiastes 9:8)? Do you obey all of the rules in Leviticus such as: You shall not plant your field with two kinds of seed (Leviticus 19:19)

  You shall not trim the corners of your beard (Leviticus 19:27)

  You should not lie on a bed where a menstruating woman has lain, and you can't sit on a chair where she has sat (Leviticus 15:20)

  Of you have managed to keep all of these rules I will be greatly impressed, though it probably means you do not share a bed with your wife or never use public transportation.

  The Bible was written in a different culture and the rules hardly apply to today's world. I do agree that the messages in the Bible should be followed as closely as possible such as; love your neighbor, following Jesus' footsteps and embracing those shunned by society and by treating all people equally.

  Maybe we are reading a different Bible- mine does not teach me to push away others for any reason, not even prostitutes (which I believe you will agree with me is in many ways worse than a committed gay couple).

  - Jenny Boehs (apr 15 at 6:57 a.m.)

• Debra asks, "Had Spaulding just remained silent, would everything have been honky-dorey? According to this quote, he was de-credentialed 'in response to [his] DISCLOSURE of his desire . . .'?"
  

  Yes, Debra, everything would be "honky-dorey'! Take it from me. Sin does love darkness, but the big public lie is that gays, committed to Christ, try to hide themselves. Germantown (within this big public lie) was accused of trying to hide what it was doing in having gay persons as full participants in the life of the congregation. Germantown congregation was transparent in its relationships with both Franconia Conference and Eastern District, but people do not believe it. As I say (with all those who keep throwing Bible verses at me), sin does love darkness, and perhaps the greatest sin of all, is, "Don't ask, don't tell!" That's the great cover of Mennonite Church USA on the subject of sexuality today, and lots of people live under those bed covers. Yes, Debra, it is me (I trust I didn't mislead you too much while teaching at IMS)!

  And to "Midwest Brother," who says, "What deeply disappoints me about all of these posts is the fact that we are all talking past each other," I respond: It is time for ALL of us (those who are still safely in the fold of MC-USA and those of us who are even more safely out of the politicized institutional church) to be captured by the Apostle's words in Romans 14-15: "Welcome one another, as Christ has welcomed you." One of the reasons we keep "talking past each other" is that Bible verses are thrown around as bullets. Rather than getting information directly about any particular person, who happens to be gay, many in the church seem to get their only information from hearsay and the public media, both of which are notorious for emphasizing something called a "gay lifestyle." What do you know of the real lives of gays who are committed to Christ? Nothing, probably, except what you hold as preconceived notions in your head. When Paul writes, "Welcome, one another, as Christ has welcomed you," he is inviting deeply divided Christians in ancient Rome, to put aside their deeply-held prejudices and actually begin to talk to one another. Then, as now, some of us condemn persons in the church who do not have the same scruples, who do not have the same conscientious beliefs as we. Then, as now, some of us despise those who keep scruples that make no sense to us, or make us do things that violate our consciences.

  My "Midwest Brother," why do you cover yourself with a label? Why not come out of that closet, name yourself, meet someone who is gay, face-to-face, and ask each other, "How has Christ welcomed you?" The answers to that question are sacrosanct, not to be debated, devalued, or in any way rejected. How shall we get past the constant burden of "talking past each other"? By sitting and listening to one another on the Biblical mandate, "Welcome, one another, as Christ has welcomed you!" It is the most ignored counsel in Scripture today, where folks are divided within the church. "Welcome, one another, as Christ has welcomed you," is the direct opposite of "Don't ask, don't tell."

  A brother in Christ on the east coast, Richard J Lichty.

  - Richard J Lichty (apr 15 at 8:08 a.m.)

• JPR, you use the question form, "How many" 3 times. Do you know how many? Does anyone know how many? Then, is that helpful dialogue?

  We need to see more than one side. I have talked to those--friends and close family-- who have been hurt by being married to someone who later claims to be gay. No, it is not only the gay people who have been hurt--and hurt deeply.

  I may think someone is "dead wrong", but I do not find it helpful to say so or to write those words. It stops dialogue. What can I reply to someone who writes that I am dead wrong on any subject?

  - Les (apr 15 at 9:08 p.m.)

• My question for Ervin Stutzman is this: Dear Brother Stutzman, do you desire to have gay people like me and like Randy Spaulding in the church? I have spent much time seeking a place for myself in the mainstream semi-orthodox segment of the church, sometimes facing ridicule from the progressive camp of the LGBT community for doing so. Must I finally acknowledge that my progressive LGBT brothers and sisters had it right all along, that seeking to integrate is thoroughly counterproductive? I cherish the peace-and-justice values of the mainstream church, but that affection is feeling like a one-way street, and one-way affection is never a healthy dynamic. Must I really let go of my dream of a church that finds vibrancy in diversity, including the diversity that I offer?

  - Ray Fisher (apr 15 at 11:15 p.m.)

• Ray, please don't give up. Hard as that may be, I truly believe folks like you and Randy will be the ones who help the Mennonite church become all it can be -- welcoming, diverse, non-judgmental and healthy. Please don't give up - follow your dream and your heart. There are lots of us who support, love and welcome you.

  - Debra Bender (apr 15 at 11:39 p.m.)

• Les, I use "How many" as a call to think. One person being bullied for who they are, one person forced out of fellowship for who they are, one person obligated to hide or deny their identity, one person leaving the church because of its failure to be the body of Christ is already too much. Statistics and exact numbers are irrelevant.

  I can understand that all people suffer in divorce, whatever the circumstance, but the best way to avoid a failed marriage is to build it upon sound foundations. For this reason, one should settle doubts as much as possible before marriage. This does not always happen, particularly when the doubt in question concerns one's sexual orientation. Pressures toward heterosexual identity are tremendous, and some people who are GLBT live in denial of their own identity. Perhaps we need to work at getting people to know themselves, to embrace who they are, or how they are oriented. Expelling openly gay people will not help.

  Les, when I am well aware that the phrasing "dead wrong" does not encourage dialogue. In all frankness, I view exclusion or marginalization of people who are GLBT with all the disdain that I view racism, sexism, and other bigotry.

  - JPR (apr 16 at 12:33 a.m.)

• We all make non-biblical assumptions about the Bible before we open it. One extreme is that the Bible is infallible and has an answer for every situation humans will every face. The other extreme is that the writers were trying to be helpful to their generations and some of what they wrote might be helpful to our generation. Whatever assumptions we make will influence what we find. Every side of every controversial issue can be and has been supported by someones “biblical position.” Scientists say we humans respond to every situation emotionally and then search for rational arguments to support our hidden emotional decisions. Homosexuality creates a hidden emotional decision within each of us. We each support those decisions by rational arguments based upon our assumptions about the Bible. Of course the Conference wouldn't censure Randy because he is gay. That is the hidden emotional decision which they wouldn't disclose. What we got was bureaucratic rational that wouldn't even be relevant if same sex marriage were legal. If those who are so emotionally against homosexuality had been raised from birth to adulthood by two loving and nurturing parents who happened to be of the same sex, they would probably have a totally different emotional response based on the parents they love. As my seminary professor, James Sanders, said, “If you read the Bible and find that it judges you, you are probably reading it correctly but if you read the Bible and find that it judges others, you are probably reading it incorrectly.”
  

  - David Ryan (apr 17 at 11:18 a.m.)

• The Mennonite Church is trapped in the past on this issue. I hope that the archaic shunning and shaming of gays and lesbians will soon go the way of the old Mennonite prohibitions on musical instruments and Sunday school.

  - Timothy I. Shenk (apr 17 at 8:15 p.m.)

• I have read the comments in strong support of Randy. From Randy Spaulding and all of his supporters who would have us believe that homosexuals are wired by God in the womb, I have the following questions:

  According to an article in the September 15, 2009 issue of The Mennonite titled ’Southeast Conference removes ministerial credential’ The Mennonite Church USA 2009 Directory lists "Laura" as Spaulding's spouse. However, Spaulding said on Sept. 30 that they divorced "a couple years ago." They remain friends, Spaulding said, and Laura attends Covenant Mennonite Fellowship. In that article, it notes Randy had been a pastor for 18 years. (In the article, it is unclear as to what year the Sept. 30 Spaulding comment refers to).

  I don’t know how long Randy and Laura were married, but I find it difficult to understand how Randy can preach to the Covenant Congregation encouraging church members to exercise the love and compassion of God with his ex-wife in attendance.

  How can Randy forsake a woman he vowed to love and then later marry a man? What kind of a witness is that to the community?

  How can Randy conduct a Christian marriage ceremony when he lives in open violation of his own marriage vows and scripture?

  What was the basis for the divorce?

  How can the Covenant congregation tell us in the letter issued by Debra Gingerich of the many spiritual gifts Randy possesses as their pastor under these strange circumstances?

  When in Randy’s life did he become homosexual?

  Are there any instances where homosexuality is displayed in the animal kingdom?

  What would Randy Spaulding and the Covenant Congregation have us do with the following scriptures:

  Romans 1:18-32 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things. wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things a re worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

  I Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

  - Dale Welty (apr 18 at 12:26 a.m.)

• To my beloved, if vexing, cousin Dale:

  You actually raise an important issue about Randall Spaulding's marriage to his former wife, Laura (I don't think you know him well enough to call him "Randy," as you do). But that is not the only such marriage about which the Mennonite Church desperately needs to examine its soul.

  Some thirty years ago I had an exchange with John Howard Yoder on this very question (he later gave me permission to cite his remarks provided I made it clear that "this is not finished work"). He took issue with my complaint that the church was forcing unsuitable marriages, and he quoted the testimony of a woman who had told her story at the 1978 Mennonite Medical Association consultation at Schiller Park, IL (with the pseudonym of "Dale's wife," as it happens!).

  He claimed that it was not evident prior to their marriage that there would be any problems. In reply I pointed out that he had overlooked this part of her story: "We were in premarital counseling at the time and all his questions were interpreted as 'normal premarital jitters,' and we went on with the wedding plans, not realizing what his doubts really were."

  I then listed about half a dozen women in our mutual acquaintance who were in similar situation, and I asked, "How long must this doleful litany continue before the church realizes that someone, somewhere, is forcing unsuitable marriages."

  I laid the blame, then as I do now, not only on the counselors who were clueless about such matters, but upon the church which continues, in a few of our conferences, to insist that gay men must undergo "conversion therapy" and become happy active heterosexuals if they want to be part of this sacred body -- and God help the unhappy women who are innocently victimized when they are persuaded to validate the result by marrying the man. When the almost inevitable crash occurs, the church then abandons them to their own devices and provides zero support services for them. (This is a scandal -- an institutional collective sin, if you will -- that must stop, and if God grants me strength, I hope to devote my remaining years to accomplishing that goal.)

  John Howard subsequently sent me an oral message via a mutual friend: "Tell Lin he's right." Our exchange had covered a range of issues, and I was unable to pin down before his untimely death which ones he thought I was right about, but do you think he might have been granting me plenary infallibility? (LOL, as the kids say these days).

  As for your questions about scripture, I can't tell you how many thousands of words I have already written on that subject in other forums, and some day I must get them compiled and made readily available. But I already addressed your question about Romans 1:18-32 some months ago by wondering whether you have a complete Bible. You assured me that you do, so I would again counsel you to do a careful reading of the very next three verses, the first three of chapter 2 (this is one of the most unfortunate of the chapter breaks introduced a few hundred years ago by some Irish Anglican bishop, if I'm getting that right). It should become clear that, whatever Paul was referring to specifically in chapter 1, it is not available to you or anyone else to use as standards by which to pass judgment on the behavior of anyone but yourself.

  Your question,"When in Randy's life did he become homosexual," is about as silly as can be. I believe, dear cousin, that you claim to be heterosexual. If that is the case, when did you become so?

  I pray for God's blessings on Randall and Gary in their future life together, on Laura that she will find fulfillment and happiness, on MC USA that it can at long, weary last get its act together, and on you, beloved cousin, that the scales may fall from your eyes and you will find joy and freedom in Christ.

  - Lin Garber (apr 18 at 5:30 p.m.)

• Dear Dale Welty,

  Allow me to try and respond briefly to just a couple of your questions.

  1. You ask, "How can Randy forsake a woman he vowed to love and then later marry a man? What kind of a witness is that to the community?"
     

  Ultimately, that answer has to come from Randy, as it is unchristian to be talking about him, and not with him. But as Randy has opportunity to read these blog comments, he is free to respond or not, and to do so without judgment by any one of us. However, let me tell you from pastoral experience, that one of the cruelest acts a gay person can do (to him/herself as well as to a spouse) is to marry for any one (or more) of these reasons: to prove to oneself that one is not gay; to try to change an orientation that cannot be changed; to pretend to her/his family and the church that s/he is not gay, etc. One needs to listen to the pain and heartaches of a heterosexual ex-spouse of a homosexually-oriented person to begin to discover compassion for such marriages ending in divorce.

  1. You ask further, "Are there any instances where homosexuality is displayed in the animal kingdom?" The answer is yes. Talk with those familiar with animal behavior (such as farmers). Carl Keener has written, of a doctoral study by Anne Perkins who found that of 2100 rams she studied, "about 10 percent have a same-sex attraction. Sheepherders knew for a long time that not all rams were equally interested in mating with ewes . . . " I'll stop the quote there, but you can read the whole article. Google "Welcome to Dialogue Series," and look for Booklet #5, "Biological and Psychological Perspectives," for Carl's article. There is no point in trying to convince someone who is determined to avoid information that is readily available, from within the church (as this booklet is), or outside. Each of us must take the initiative to learn as much as we can, as we continue to learn about the richness and diversity of God's good creation, as well as continuing to mature in our own faith and spirituality.

  2. Finally, you ask, "What would Randy Spaulding and the Covenant Congregation have us do with the following scriptures," and then you quote extensively from Romans 1:18-32. If you read one verse further from where you ended your quote, Romans 2:1, we read, "Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things."

  I do not wish to judge you, Dale, but both of us, on opposite views on "gays in the church," have to ponder a long time over that counsel from the Apostle Paul. See my previous longer quote above (April 15) on what I think is the most ignored text over these thorny issues, Romans 14-15, which is summed up in by Paul writing, "Welcome, one another, as Christ has welcomed you." Here, Paul is inviting deeply divided Christians in ancient Rome to put aside their deeply-held prejudices and actually begin to talk to one another. I pray to God, and I pray with all of us enmeshed in debate, judgment, and despising of one another's faith, to heed the apostle's words, "Welcome one another."

  Richard J Lichty Richard J Lichty

  - Richard J Lichty (apr 18 at 5:46 p.m.)

• Ah, Lin Garber, your question, "And when did you choose to be heterosexual" is a line I've been using for years. It works quite well as a conversation stopper. I'm almost to the point where I sigh and say, "No one's forcing you to 'be gay' or marry someone of the same sex, so why do you care?" And there's my husband's response: "I'm all in favor of gay marriage; gay people should have the chance to be as miserable as the rest of us!" Sometimes you just have to laugh so you won't cry.

  - Debra Bender (apr 18 at 5:56 p.m.)

• Is that really how it is? We are either gay or straight (and never some of each) and it's very clear from before we can remember which it is?

  - BDF (apr 18 at 8:48 p.m.)

• BDF, I should have made it clear that I can speak only for myself and those who share my place on the continuum that you very accurately described at 10:57 a.m. on Apr. 13. That place, using the Kinsey scale of 0-6, is at 6 -- i.e., exclusively homosexual.

  If you are one of those who is "somewhere in the middle" -- say a 3 or a 4 -- I would no more project my experience as something you must adhere to than I would accept such a projection by you and other middle-dwellers on us 6's as what we should conform to.I can only affirm you wherever you are, and hope you can do the same for me.

  I should also point out that as a gay male of a certain age (okay, 76) I cannot speak for lesbians or transgendered or intersex or queer people (unlike many of my younger gay friends I am unable to "redeem" for myself what was a very hurtful term, nor can I quite grasp that part of queer theory that does insist that their fluidity needs to be recognized -- but I can also affirm them wherever they are).

  My plea, then, would be to recognize that there are those of us at 5 or 6 on the Kinsey scale who are harmed, along with others in our lives, by attempts to move us to notches on the continuum where God has not placed us. Those of you who are at other places on the scale or with other self-understandings than mine are invited to present your own concerns.

  - Lin Garber (apr 19 at 3:52 p.m.)

• I really don't have time to read all the entries, but two things glare out at me. 1. Will the church do away the all the songbooks and worship materials this man helped birth...(YES the pun IS intended)???? That would only be consequent of the radial people and their conclusions. But wait...this is NOT about homsexuality in ledership, this entire thing is about divorce and remarriage. Didn't Jesus say that those whithout sin should throw the first stone? Seems we're all without sin....judging by the stones....

  1. Why DOESN'T a posting about social injustice or evangelism or the environmental devastation or simple living create SUCH A BUZZ on here? Is it possible that all we do is see the splinter in the brother's eye, but....

  I find this entire episode heart-breakingly sad...

  - Sylvia (apr 19 at 6:46 p.m.)

• As I read through these comments I can see very opposing views. I think it comes down to how you interpret and view the Bible.

  I don't claim to be perfect, I pray that my words are as close to God's will as possible. As one of the "young people" (20) that is supposedly leaving over this stuff I thought I'd put in how I see this .

  1 Corinthians 7:8 says that it's better for the unmarried and widows to stay unmarried, so the decision to marry is something that EVERY believer is supposed to consider giving up. Not just those of orientations other than straight.

  After reading my Bible, I cannot find anywhere that speaks of a christian marriage in any other way than one that is male/female. Marriage was instituted by God. It should emulate the relationship between Jesus and His bride, the church. Note that Jesus isn't returning for his husband. If you read Ephesians 5, you see how an ideal christian marriage should work. Equality and respect are present but there are still different levels of authority, likened to the the authority Jesus has over the church. I don't think anyone would dare try to say the church has equal authority with Jesus himself. How than can two equally authoritied individuals, ranked through Biblical grounds of gender roles, marry and still be imitating Christ and his Bride?

  We also see a general shift in society away from the gender roles defined in Ephesians but christians are called strangers or aliens in the world they live in. I believe that this is part of the reason why the divorce rate in the U.S. is steadily climbing. Divorce was allowed in the OT, but in the NT it was revealed that it was only because men are wicked and not because it was God's plan. (In case anyone is wondering I don't believe in divorce and remarriage) IMHO, or interpretation, Any pastor who is married, divorced, and then remarried, all while after becoming a believer, should be removed or step down from their position of authority. The ending of the exercising of the gifts of these individuals is not as imporant as the witness for Christ that is tarnished for unbelievers. If a person sees everything in the church that he sees in secular society, why would he become a christian? To be a part of the club that is constantly arguing within itself?

  I take the Bible to be God's infallible word, please don't try to argue the case for grace because that reqires a judgement call on the true status of ones heart, yes a truely repentent heart can be forgiven of anything.But that doesn't give a license to keep on in that fashion after repentence.

  I challenge anyone to find a Biblical based arguement for a God instituted gay marriage or divorce and remarriage (save for the cause of forncation). I will reevaluate my beliefs when these are presented.

  .

  - CLH (apr 20 at 12:29 a.m.)

• I appreciate your response, Lin. As it acknowledges the complexity of this subject, it puts us in touch with the difficulty our church faces when attempting to describe a life-giving path.

  In your comment, you suggest a reasonable way for the church to respond to this complexity: not attempt “to move us to notches on the continuum where God has not placed us.”

  But as I consider your suggestion, I find myself taking the God language out of it. I’m not convinced we should sanctify our sexual preferences (or our ambivalence) by attribution to God.
  

  And I’m left wondering how much culture shapes the self-perceptions of those of us in the middle of the continuum, and whether a culture-shaping church might not have something to say about how we think about all of this.

  - BDF (apr 20 at 7:58 a.m.)

• Brother Welty asks of me, "How can Randy forsake a woman he vowed to love and then later marry a man?" My response: I lament deeply the death of my 18-year marriage to my wife, Laura. I lament the hurt she has endured. She is an amazing person, and I am humbled and grateful that we have maintained a friendship that has outlasted our marriage. The Sunday after the Southeast Conference ripped away my ministerial credentials, Laura was the first person at the worship service to stand in support of my ministry. I remember she was wearing a dazzlingly defiant pink blouse!

  Growing up, I read Christian book after Christian book telling me I was fundamentally flawed for being gay. I heard every Scripture possible quoted and sermon after sermon saying that it's the Christian's Duty to love me but to also tell me --in a loving way, of course--that God hates me and that I need to get my life "straight" (pun intended). I tried to Pray-the-Gay-Away, imploring God hundreds of thousands of times to heal and fix me. And I married my best friend, Laura, thinking that if I did, THAT would be the proof to God that I was serious and He would heal me and send me on my way a happy, straight man. When after a year, God didn’t seem to be holding up His end of the bargain, I even tried reparative therapy, i.e. Christian counseling to try to "fix" me and re-wire my brain to think like a real man (meaning a straight/heterosexual person). Through it all, I was sincere and dedicated to serving God and walking God's ways with integrity. And I remained faithful to Laura through our 18-year marriage.

  But you know what? It didn't work. It took me many years, but I finally realized through the grace-filled counsel of loving, Christian friends (including Laura), pastors, biblical scholars and Holy Spirit that God was trying to tell me all along that He had no desire to fix me, because there was nothing wrong with my affectional/sexual orientation. I was not fundamentally flawed, and being gay was not a sin. Injustice and oppression are perpetrated on persons who are lgbt and their loved ones when they are forced to be someone God never intended them to be. I wish I had been a stronger young man at 22 to stand up to a homophobic Church and culture. I wasn’t. It would have saved both Laura and myself a lot of pain and struggle. I have asked Laura’s forgiveness for this and pray that she will continue to find God’s healing and peace.

  Now, Brother Welty is of course hearing something entirely different from God. That's the tricky part, isn't it? We both think God is speaking to us and telling us truth. And each can use Scripture and moral and ethical arguments to back it up. I believe that God actually blesses loving, committed same-sex relationships in the Bible and today, and there is competent biblical scholarship and interpretation to give evidence. And Brother Welty believes God condemns gay people in the Bible and today. So who is right? Who has a corner on the truth? Ultimately, I believe the people of God will never resolve the issue by trying to agree on what the Bible says or doesn’t say. We live in today with an understanding of affectional/sexual orientation that did not exist in Jesus’ time and culture. In all humility, I'm responding to something the writers of scripture could not have understood.

  Brother Welty also asks, "What kind of a witness is that to the community?" In my humble opinion, anytime a person’s Christian witness enhances life, expands love and calls people into the experience of a new being, then it is a good witness. At our wedding ceremony last June, the community witnessed two people, free from the prejudice and oppression of homophobia, free from fear, free to be who God intended them to be and love as God intended them to love, express godly love, affection and devotion toward one another with all the blessings of God and our faith community. It was a day in which life won, and love prevailed.
  

  - Randall Spaulding (apr 20 at 11:59 a.m.)

• Lin, I can only admire your eloquence. It is too bad that, as per Facebook, we cannot click on a "like" button.
  

  BDF, I suppose it is a question of if one sees sexuality as a "preference" or as an "orientation." I would also hesitate to bring God into a "preference," since by its very definition, a "preference" is matter of choice. To be sure, "preference" is a definite factor in some equations. If one decides to cheat on one's spouse because she or he has grown dull or blemished with familiarity, this is often a matter of "preference."

  An "orientation" is much deeper than "preference". The catch is that"Orientation" is an integral, immutable part of our being, just as skin complexion, physical stature, mental capability. As such, God language is quite appropriate to describe it.
  

  If a marriage falls apart because one partner is gay, this is often a matter of "orientation." In this case, "orientation" might appear to be "preference", but it is the "orientation" that doomed the marriage to failure from the beginning, likely because one "prefers" to be "normal".
  

  The bottom line is that we need to forge a path toward open, healthy discussion of sexual orientation, even and especially within context of the church. The better we facilitate people learning to know themselves--and not only in terms of sexual orientation--the greater our chances of avoiding sham marriages and other tragedies.

  - JPR (apr 20 at 12:00 p.m.)

• Randall, thank you being willing to share your testimony.

  Some would ascribe the sin of divorce to Randall, but from where I stand it's clear that the sin is of the church against both Randall and Laura for the way it shamed Randall of his true sexual orientation. Though I don't know Randall but I would guess that his painful journey through marriage, divorce and remarriage has only made him more capable of ministry in the church.

  It is troubling that this issue is so profoundly divisive, but I don't think anyone can fix that.

  I suspect that each new generation will be more embracing of all sexual orientations and that love is on a slow march to victory.

  - Joseph P (apr 20 at 3:42 p.m.)

• So are there any limits on our sexual freedom? Do we have to make any choices as Christians? No one is 100% gay or 100% straight. Heck we probably don't desire to me monogamus. Should our church have any behavioral standards on sexuality (homo or hetro), our should people just do what they feel is right? Is that what we are saying that any sexual restrictions are archaic and that God, god lets up express sexualtiy however we want?

  - FrankJ (apr 20 at 4:56 p.m.)

• FrankJ, why would sanctioning gay marriage imply that all other sexual restrictions and guidelines are being discarded?

  I might as well ask, "If gay marriage is not allowed are there any restrictions on a Church's freedom to discriminate and oppress?"

  - Joseph P (apr 20 at 6:10 p.m.)

• JPR, I now can see why you understood me as you have. I should have used the word “preference” more carefully.

  What I meant to address are those of us “in the middle” where sexual desire and attraction is fluid and relatively undefined. And I am asking whether the church might have some counsel to give beyond the encouragement to “Be well!”

  - BDF (apr 20 at 9:58 p.m.)

• BDF-I think I understand a bit better what you mean now. Sorry for my confusion.

  You bring up a good point in that our solutions tend toward people at either end of a much broader spectrum. We must first and foremost work toward a point that we can discuss such matters openly, honestly, and nonjudgmentally. God created us as we are; we must learn to know and come to terms with ourselves.
  

  - JPR (apr 21 at 12:44 a.m.)

• Theologically, I think we all really have the same orientation. Have you ever pondered the words from Saint Isaac of Syria? "This life has been given to you for repentance. Do not waste it on vain pursuits."

  - cdz (apr 21 at 11:07 a.m.)

• Joseph,

  I have not heard the gay advocates limit the discussion to gay marriage. I hear about LBGTQ. So may understanding is that Pink Mennos and others are advocating for Bisexual relationship, Queer behavior(????), and changing of gender. To me that sounds like a lot sexual liberty. The advocacy seems to go beyond sexual behavior in the context of a committed relationship. I am not in favor of hetrosexual sexual activity outside the context of marriage, why would gays, lesbians, or others get special treatment?

  Also do you think Ervin or Terry read this blog? MWR is not a MC USA publication.

  - FrankJ (apr 21 at 12:04 p.m.)

• Frank, thanks for the follow up.

  I'm not an expert on all the terminology associated with "LBGTQ." I think the point is that we should all be able to pursue sexual intimacy that is consistent with our orientations, with the same freedoms and restraints that are applied heterosexual people.

  I think it's probably true that many people who advocate for LBGTQ acceptance would also be relatively tolerant of other forms of sexual freedom (particularly pre-marital sex) but it's not fair to assume an automatic correlation between the two.

  Furthermore, if our interest as a church body is in sanctifying proper, healthy unions between two people, instead of endorsing sexual freedom, then it should be a priority to accept and embrace gay marriage, otherwise the church can never counsel LGBTQ people on monogamy with any integrity.

  Lastly, you say it is your understanding that Pink Mennos and others "are advocating for Bisexual relationship, Queer behavior(????), and changing of gender." Your statement here is a bit confusing and seems to imply some wrong things. Pink Mennos advocate that bisexual people be affirmed in their double orientation and be given the freedom to be married to any one person (whether that person be of the same sex or not). Someone other than me will have to clarify what is meant by the term "queer" (I think it's just a generic term for all the rest...LGBT) but when you say that Pink Mennos advocate for "queer behavior" I think you are off the mark. "Queer," like the other terms, is not a "behavior" but an "orientation." What's being advocated for is the acceptance of the orientation and the affirmation of marriage unions that are consistent with those orientations.

  Oh and yes, I am confident that Ervin and Terry read the MWR. I don't know if they would generally follow the online comments, but I'm guessing they are observing this particular one.

  - Joseph P (apr 21 at 4:48 p.m.)

• In the aftermath of September 11th, my family and I felt an overwhelming need to connect with people in terms of a Peace Witness. The 'American civil religion' was at its height and glory. We 'came home' to Covenant Mennonite Fellowship with Pastor Randy Spaulding. At Covenant, I felt our peace lineage come alive with passion, intimacy and relevance in an atmosphere of mutual rediscovery. As Mennonites we have earned unique standing to lead on this issue with our centuries-long vigil of carrying this article of faith. In SW FL, complete with many large Mennonite churches, it is Randy who is frequently called upon to represent a cogent voice, as pastor from an historical peace church. Randy’s voice has been heard at many peace rallies, interfaith services and on social justice issues. As part of a peacemaking outreach, Covenant hosted a "World Religion Series". The first was June 1, 2003, after the invasion of Iraq. Our guest speaker, Samar Jarrah, a professor (and former CNN correspondent from Jordan) and Muslim from Palestine, spoke to us about the religion of Islam, common ground between Muslims and Christians, and the place of Jesus of Nazareth in Islam. This experience for me was healing, profound and beautiful.

  We in Christendom are impatient, and expect the Muslim World to step up and bring their congregants into the 21st century with their much more difficult issues and baggage...as related to cultural, sociological, national, colonial history and present-day wars and Koran burnings to surmount! The Mennonites have in the present day, the world as their oyster. We are such good capitalists. We have totally integrated. We are respected. We are rich. Mennonites, it seems to me, are coasting on some hard issues in our time. How long before we accept gays into the human family, accorded with native human rights and dignity, and looked upon as whole? And, the nagging issue of Absolutism, in terms of one's faith. Surely, an outmoded paradigm that divides and separates rather than affirms and unites. We were at the cutting-edge of civilization in the 16th century. It is sad to see our emphasis elsewhere. Pastor Randy, to me, is in the finest Anabaptist tradition that many of us seek to adhere to. The world needs our voice and example.
  

  - Sandra Stutzman (apr 21 at 10:03 p.m.)

• i have an m-div so i know more than a little bit about scripture...i live in the 21st century so i know a bit about science. i have a fairly good size family so i know the number and names of the gays in my midst. i have come to anabaptist thinking late in my life...i know how important it was that the founders of the anabaptist movement question "the church" of their time...it was important enough that they were willing to die for that belief...we have believer baptism, communion, seperation of church and state, an adult view of pacifism today as a result of their questioning of "the church"...i expect my fellow anabaptists to continue to question "the church" even if it is the anabaptist branch of "the church."

  1. we know know that the church was wrong in going to scripture to "prove" that the earth was stationary (and flat by the way) and that the sun moved.
  2. we know that being black is not a sin, the sin is looking to scripture to prove that being black is the sin. the church was wrong in not recognizing that till it did.
  3. we know that looking to scripture to prove why women should be seen and not heard in church and the world was....well dumb....the church was a bit late in coming to that knowledge.
  4. take a deep breath, we know know that being gay is not a matter of choice (there is the pesky science again)... soooo if it is as "normal" as straightness is we should look at how we talk about it and deal with our past errors about gayness...

  my problem is that the higher up's within our denomination (and many others, by the way) are more interested in being part of civil religion than falling back on the thinking of the anabaptist founders and questioning what they are seeing coming from "the church"....oooohhhh wait a minute, maybe that is the problem....the higher up's ARE the church soooo how can they question themselves...soooo that means that we the people on the ground have to do the hard work and not expect the higher up's to do the work for us...

  i love my gay cousins i can not look at them and say "you made bad choices", they didn't make a choice!...i must say, "how can i support your orientation and speak truth to power." (in this case power being "the church.")

  AND if i can't use the publications of the church (because of the fear the church publications have about an open discussion)to speak this truth i must find other places where i can speak.

  - jim compton-schmidt (apr 28 at 1:40 p.m.)

• Once I learned to know several gay Mennonites who were obviously (in the sense of "by your fruits ye shall know them") committed Christians and yet very convincing that their sexual orientation was an immutable part of their identity -- not a choice -- I became ashamed of my previous homophobia. There comes a time, as we learn more, that we either double down on our prejudices, or repent and admit that we were wrong. It is humbling and uncomfortable but the church as a whole should consider doing it sooner rather than later.

  - Bruce Fast (apr 28 at 3:28 p.m.)

• Randall, I was so saddened when I read of your dismissal from the Conference. When will we learn that there are at least 10% of our population that are gays and lesbians and others. How many does that mean we are with every day.I love all my friends I don't care what their sexual orientation might be. I love your letter. GOD BLESS YOU and all of us. I am with a SS class that is really studying the early beginnings of our so-called bible. There are many books that didn't get accepted in the bible and it was a limited group of priests who choose them. I'll bet some of them were gay, but it was illegal then.

  - Georgia Linscheid (apr 28 at 10:10 p.m.)

• Do any of you actually read the Bible or are you all twisting its meaning to justify Randy? You might want to re-read these sections in your Bible: LEV.19:22 and LEV. 20:13. Facts are facts. While I do not have a personal problem with the Gay community, I do have a problem with a Gay man preaching the word of GOD in this disrespectful way. Praying for Randy's soul would be the best we can all do for him. K

  - Kim F. (nov 1 at 7:45 p.m.)

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